Interview: Charmaine Wong on Acceptance, Belonging & The Singaporean Identity
In this interview with SPEQ:TRUM podcast host Jamie Nonis, filmmaker Charmaine Wong discusses the notion of acceptance and belonging vis-à-vis the Singaporean identity, her fears around coming out to her conservative Asian parents, and building a life for herself as an independent lesbian living in Singapore.
Q: With me today is Charmaine Wong who I went to university with in Perth, Western Australia, many, many, many years ago. We met because she was doing a documentary called Pink IC for her thesis, and she was looking for LGBT+ Singaporeans to interview. Back then, I was still sort of in the closet, so although I reached out to her to participate in the documentary, I wanted to be anonymous and we actually did the interview in the dark and I even requested for my voice to be masked. So now the tables have turned and I’m the one interviewing you on this topic. So that’s kind of weird.
C: Yes, it’s quite weird. But I’m glad now you’re all out and proud.
Q: Thank you. It’s been a long journey to get to here. So, Charmaine’s documentary ended up being shown in the inaugural Short Circuit, Singapore’s first LGBT+ Film Festival, 12 years ago in October 2006. Can you share what the screening meant to you personally as a filmmaker, against the backdrop of the whole LGBT+ scene and narrative in Singapore during that era?
C: It was a very exciting time then. At that time, our then-Prime Minister Goh Chok Tong actually gave an interview with Time magazine, and he mentioned that, “Civil servants in sensitive positions in government should declare their sexuality so they won’t be blackmailed.” That caused a really intense debate. At the same time, Dr Vivian Balakrishnan was submitting a report for remaking Singapore. So I was wondering if the LGBTQ+ community could actually figure in the Singapore identity; do we belong? Can we fit ourselves in it? Are you actually thinking about fitting us in it? So I did that documentary, it was an all-girls affair because I felt that a lot of women weren’t really adding to the discussion… it’s usually the men and so I thought I should get the women’s point of view.
Q: So how do you feel about the women’s point of view? Do you find that it was adding to the narrative or was it a different perspective than what the men held?
C: It’s very different. But it revealed a lot more issues than really addressing certain things. I wanted to find out if they felt that they belong. Short answer is ‘No’. But along the way, I think a lot of them were raising a few issues of class, of gender, of race. So it’s more than just being a lesbian or bisexual or queer.
Q: So you feel like they felt they didn’t belong in the Singapore narrative?
C: No. I mean, I had to mask your face.
Q: How do you feel about how far Singapore has come since then?
C: At that point in time, the community was emerging but I think we have gone a long way. There are so many services out there for the LGBTQ+ community by the LGBTQ+ community. But other than that, I don’t think anyone else is really catering to them, so we’re just helping ourselves here and we’ve gone a long way, very sophisticated, with Pink Dot and all. But I think outside of that, it’s still lacking. We’ve only just begun talking about a lot of other things that were stigmas like mental health. I really do wish that we could bring LGBTQ+ issues out in the open and have them come and help us in certain ways.
Q: “Them”, who?
C: The public, the government.
Charmaine Wong contemplating the notion of identity vis-a-vis being Singaporean and part of the LGBTQ+ community
Q: So your documentary discussed the Singaporean identity vis-à-vis being gay in Singapore. Could you share your personal story as a gay woman living and working in Singapore?
C: I’ve been quite privileged. I am privileged, let’s just put it out there. So it wasn’t really very dramatic. I mean, there were difficult times because I do lean towards the more masculine identity, behaviour, so I think it’s always been a cause for concern for my parents.
Q: They’ve acknowledged that you’re a lesbian or you’re more masculine?
C: I think they kind of know. I leave my erotica out in the open, mum dusts [around it] a bit. So I think they know but I’ve not officially come out to them.
Q: Is there any reason why you haven’t come out to them? Perhaps you can share some of your fears or challenges.
C: It’s hard, you know. If you come out to friends or colleagues and they don’t accept that, then just screw them. But if it’s your family – your mum, your dad, you brother – and they look at you differently because of that, it really hurts.
Q: Basically, you’re trying to avoid having to deal with that?
C: Eventually, I think I would have to say it. Yes, I think eventually if you want a life for yourself, I think you just have to tell them. I’ll just have to tell them.
Q: That’s kind of interesting. What do you mean by ‘having a life for yourself’? Do you feel like you don’t have a life for yourself or you’re not living for yourself right now?
C: Openly, no. I have a really good friend who’s left Singapore and she’s in Australia now. I asked her why because [to me] Singapore ain’t that bad. But she said eventually she wants to have a family with a partner, have children of her own, and she finds that she can’t really do it in Singapore. Then it got me thinking, as I grow older, you have to stop being a child, you can’t really live with your parents anymore. So if I were to leave the nest, then where do I set up my nest?
Q: Basically, you don’t see it as a possibility for you to be able to leave your nest and live the kind of life that you want to live right now?
C: Not unless I come out to them, I think. Because if I do, then they’ll know why I’m doing certain things.
Q: Does your hesitance to come out to them have anything to do with filial piety or ‘face’ on behalf of the family?
C: Possibly. If you say, “Oh, I graduated, I got this.” Then, people are proud of you. But I think to announce that you’re a lesbian, it’s not something anyone will [go], “Hey, my daughter’s a lesbian, dinner on me.” Things like that. So it’s a lot about face.
Q: As the landscape in Singapore is changing with regard to LGBT+ issues, do you feel like you’re getting any closer to being able to come out to them?
C: I think so. Because there was once when I was walking out of my house and I was all dressed up, then my mum came running to me and said, “Oh, are you going to Pink Dot?” “Are you leaving the house to go to Pink Dot?”
Q: So cute.
C: I said, “No”, because I wasn’t really going to Pink Dot. So there’s a certain awareness on the part of my parents. So they are aware but they’re not one hundred percent sure and they don’t really want to know the answer, I think. Otherwise, they would’ve asked.
Q: I see. It sounds like they kind of know and sense already. So I’m just wondering what’s actually stopping you from taking that plunge then.
C: I’m just afraid of the reaction.
Q: Like things might change and the relationships might change?
C: Yeah, I just don’t really want a lot of drama. But I think what I’m most afraid of is probably the rejection that you kind of half-expect, but maybe not. But I’ll never know. Not yet.
Q: I’ll share a very funny story about [how I came out to] my cousin Yvonne who’s a lot older. Many, many years ago, in my early 20s, I wanted to come out to her, and it was this challenge for me. I was stressing out so much about it – the same issues as you; the fear of rejection and all that kind of stuff. And I took her out, we had drinks, I sat her down opposite me. And I was, “I have something to tell you.” And I was building up to it and so stressed, I think I was sweating. And she was, “What?” And it could not come out. And she was, “What? You’re pregnant?” Then I burst out laughing. I said, “No.” And she was, “What? You’re on drugs?” And I was, “No.” I can’t remember exactly what I said, but I think I said, “I’m gay” or “I like girls” or something like that. And then she said, “Yah, I know.” It was so anti-climax for me because I was stressing out like crazy about it and it was such an anti-climax.
C: I guess a lot of us are just building it up in our minds.
Q: I think so. How did you first discover that you were lesbian?
C: It’s a funny story. I was in preschool and my dad and I were reading this storybook, the ending of it was Jerry mouse married another mouse – you know Tom & Jerry – Jerry mouse married another girl mouse and it was a church wedding. He’s all dressed up in a suit and she in a wedding gown. And I was saying, “Oh, next time I just want to be like that.”
Q: Which one?
C: Jerry mouse in the suit so I can marry my mouse bride in her wedding gown. And then my dad straightaway said, “No, you’re going to be this.” Pointing at the girl mouse in the bridal gown. And I was, “Oh, okay.” I was just very surprised: “Oh, so I don’t get to choose what I want? So I have to be a certain way.” And then later on, they send me to an all-girls’ school, the environment was pretty ‘sapphic’. You kind of realise things--
Q: Which school was that?
C: It was just one of those in the CHIJ family. And I realised that, “Oh, okay, I do like girls.” I don’t really know what to make of it. I’ve no idea what’s ahead of me, I just like girls.
“When I was in secondary school, I remember thinking there’s no future in all of us liking girls. I thought that maybe after secondary school, all of us will just go on our straight path. But it didn’t happen for some of us.”
Q: How did you feel when you discovered that you were different or you liked girls and that was not the norm?
C: When I was in secondary school, I remember thinking there’s no future in this, there’s no future in all of us liking girls. So I thought that maybe after secondary school, all of us will just go on our straight path. But it didn’t happen for some of us.
Q: So you assumed that you would eventually go on the straight and narrow?
C: Yes, or make myself that way so that at least if you don’t see a future for yourself in that, then I think the more pragmatic thing was to go with the flow.
Q: Right now, where you’re at, do you feel that’s a possible future for yourself?
C: As I got more independent financially, I can see a small gleam of possibility, and that is why I’m thinking about how I can make my future more possible.
Q: Possibility in what?
C: In probably having my own family, having my own place to stay.
Q: With a girl?
C: Yes. With a (girl) mouse.
Q: So did you ever face any challenge in terms of accepting yourself, accepting your sexuality, and how did you deal with it?
C: There’s still a sense of shame, unfortunately. I want to say I’m out and proud, but I think a lot of things that are holding me back is the shame and the feeling that I’m not deserving.
Q: Deserving of what?
C: Of love, of help, of anything.
Q: Where do you think that shame comes from? Is it self-imposed?
C: I think a lot of it is self-imposed but, all through my life, there are little things that people say that adds on to it. Like, for example, it’s “unnatural”, things like that. Just feels weird.
Q: Self-acceptance is a very big theme with a lot of LGBT+ individuals. Have you actually taken any steps or measures to work on it, to be more accepting of yourself?
C: I think the first step is to talk about it. It’s one of the reasons why I’m here; that’s why I’m showing my face, I’m not masking my voice. I mean, it’s kind of scary. Actually, on my trip here, I was a bit scared. Because I think some people find that it’s okay that you’re gay, but just shut up about it. And you ask why, why should I shut up about it? And you tell me about your boyfriends and all that shit. So it’s about talking about it.
Q: Exactly. I mean, I will like to acknowledge you for actually taking that step, to be open and out and speaking about it. It takes a lot of courage.
C: Yay.
SPEQ:TRUM podcast host Jamie Nonis interviewing Charmaine
Q: In the context of work and career, have you experienced any challenges or discrimination because of your sexuality?
C: I work at a video production house – and the thing about the media industry in Singapore or maybe anywhere else in the world – it’s quite strange in a sense that gay people gravitate towards it. So maybe you have designers or art directors or whoever is gay. Or a gay camerawoman. And then you have this other part (of the industry that) is totally macho and straight. It’s hard to interact. I mean, they try to but it’s always…
Q: Because video production and filmmaking is a very masculine type of industry?
C: (In the context of) Singapore crew, I think the younger ones are coming out but the older ones are very macho uncles.
Q: Have you ever felt the need to hide your true identity from your boss, colleagues or clients?
C: No, I think my boss is quite a perceptive man, so he sort of knew that I’m gay. My clients, I think what’s important is that I deliver their jobs to them on time, so they’ve never raised any issues.
Q: Have you faced any outright discrimination by virtue of being gay?
C: No, it’s more subtle. I’ve not been told to burn in hell. Nobody (has) said that to my face. But they do say things, like, “I’m not really into gay guys, they disgust me, but I don’t mind two girls having sex.” And it’s always a man saying that--
Q: Of course.
C: --in your face.
Q: Speaking of you working in a video production company, have you considered doing more films or documentaries on LGBT+ topics as a follow-up to Pink IC, perhaps?
C: Not really. Maybe in the future I might, because I think the landscape has changed. Sometimes, you have to find a certain story that calls out to you, then you go ahead and do it. And there are so many things that have to be covered. I just need to look around and see what interests me and go with that.
Q: You’ve mentioned that you’re not a very big activist. Would you want to be or what might be holding you back?
C: It used to be that life got in the way and you have to earn your paycheck and all that. But now, I’m slowly trying to get involved in any way. Just so I can be part of a community where, if we don’t receive help from anybody else, we can help ourselves.
Q: What’s changed for you that’s brought you to this perspective right now?
C: Age, friends leaving, friends doing their own things. So you ask yourself, if you want to stay here and if you want to have a future, you better build it yourself.
Q: So you wouldn’t consider leaving the country in order to have the family that you want?
C: Despite everything, I do love Singapore. So I’m stuck here. I’ll just have to learn how to build a future where I was born and bred.
Q: Growing up different is tough for all of us, especially when you can’t be open to your family. If there was one thing you could tell your kid-self, what would it be?
C: My kid-self?
Q: How old were you when you started realising you were different?
C: 5? But I wouldn’t know how my 5-year-old (self) would react to me.
“If I had to do it all over again, I would not hide myself. I would’ve been bolder, take more risks, open up to possibilities – be it relationships, career or coming out to parents – in all aspects of life. Instead of just hiding and being in a safe space.”
Q: Okay, maybe a little bit older, along the way, along your journey.
C: I suppose if I have to do it all over again, I would not hide myself. I would’ve been bolder, take more risks.
Q: In what sense?
C: Open up to possibilities, be it relationships or career or coming out to parents, in all aspects of life. Instead of just hiding and being in a safe space.
Q: Speaking of relationships, do you feel that being in Singapore and it being a “conservative” society, has impacted your relationships or your pursuit of relationships?
C: With my very first one, we were talking and we were thinking, “Let’s not come out to our parents until we’re financially independent and then we have a bit of power.” But that (relationship) was over in three months. And then after that, I just…
Q: So, no relationships since then?
C: No. Every time you meet me, I’ll say that.
Q: Because I’m waiting for the day I can celebrate with you.
C: You’ll be the first to know.
Q: But I’m really curious, is it because society is not as accepting? Is that a big deterrent for you?
C: I wouldn’t say it’s big. It is deterrent, but it’s not big. Because if you fall in love, you just fall in love. And you know, what’s next? Then you figure it out.
Q: Or is it the case of you haven’t met ‘The One’?
C: No. I’ve never met ‘The One’, if you need to know. If you must know.
Transcribed by: Natasha Pestana