Interview: Aarika Lee on Diversity, Rainbow-washing & Making a Stand
In this interview, popular content creator Aarika Lee and SPEQ:TRUM host Jamie Nonis chat about why brands need to embrace diversity and use their voices and platform to make a stand, how they can avoid being accused of rainbow-washing, and why it’s so important that her children grow up in a world where equality is championed and everyone has the freedom to love.
Q: So you’re straight, a Christian, married to rapper THELIONCITYBOY and you have two children, Zola Mae and Ari Jon. Why did you agree to come on this podcast?
A: Aside that you’re my cousin, I guess I can’t speak for all Christians but I think there also needs to be a voice even in that community that is willing to be the bridge for conversations like this. Given the opportunity to come and listen to you as well, and to share my views and my understanding; I think that’s how our communities can better integrate as well.
Q: You’ve been an active and vocal ally of the community for some time now. Why do you personally choose to be a supporter of the LGBTQ+ community?
A: It begins from my experiences growing up, and I think this is also where you come into the picture. It’s very easy for anyone to be against the LGBTQIA community if they don’t understand or don’t condone their lifestyles. If they don’t have someone [who’s LGBTQ] in their lives that they truly love and care about, I understand why it’s difficult for them to be an ally. But if you do have someone in your circle – like this conversation is not just about a community of people outside of your own – it is about someone that you love, that you care about. And I feel it’s always been important for me to be an ally because of that. It’s a human being that I feel like I’m standing with, standing for. So it’s not even about your lifestyles or your choices, honestly, it’s because I want to stand by you. And I feel that is the reason why I have chosen to be an ally for a long time.
Q: So it’s all because of me? [laughs]
A: It’s all because of you [laughs]. And I do have other friends as well who come from the community. But I think with you it’s extra special or important because we grew up together. And I feel you’re family. I was at an establishment performing, and during the break – it was sometime before Pink Dot – and I happened to have a conversation with the [bar] owner and he was very anti-LGBTQ and in that moment, I felt very uncomfortable because I did not want to be there performing anymore. But he also asked me a question, which I found was not his place to ask me. His words were literally: “If your son was gay, how would you feel about that?” One, I found it very rude because we’re not close, so it’s not like we even have that relationship where he should’ve felt like he was free to ask me any question. Two, I also felt offended because how are dare you ask me how I would think about my son just because? Like, [even if] he didn’t choose a lifestyle that you condone, it’s got nothing to do with you.
Q: When he asked you that, did he ask in a sense of trying to get you to understand his point of view about being against it, or?
A: I suppose, in a way. But he also asked me in a way where he was very self-righteous and almost as if he knew what I felt. “So you tell me if your son was gay, you would be okay with it?” And it’s not his place to say that. And I didn’t appreciate that he wanted to decide for me or feel that he already knew my answer before he even asked.
Q: I’m curious, how did you respond to him?
A: I actually told him, “I don’t think I can have this conversation with you right now. So I’m going to leave. I’m going to play my last set and I’m not coming back here.”
Q: Seriously?
A: Yes, I had to tell him that because he was very vocal about it and he was starting to bring up people that we knew mutually, and he was shaming them for talking about LGBTQ issues on their Facebook platforms, and we are not close. It’s just that we’re obviously in the entertainment circle, our paths may have crossed before. But he was being very vocal and I felt very uncomfortable and I almost wished that I had stayed to argue more but it was really in a place where I wasn’t prepared, I didn’t think that someone who owned an establishment – a bar – you would think that he wouldn’t be that conservative, in my mind, I made my own assumptions, I suppose, of him. But in that moment, I was very taken aback and I was like, “I don’t think I can have this conversation with you.”
Q: Was it going to be a long-term gig?
A: It wasn’t a long-term gig, thankfully. I was covering another band that couldn’t play that night.
Q: That’s very interesting.
A: Yes, it was. And I remember leaving and I called [my husband] Kevin straightaway and told him what happened because I was appalled.
Q: When was this?
A: It was just last year. And I feel like I shouldn’t have been surprised but I think I always want to give people the benefit of doubt and not stereotype everyone, but the fact that he brought it up was, wow, maybe there are really a lot of people who do think like him.
Popular content creator, business owner and mum of two Aarika Lee
Q: As much as there’s growing support for the LGBTQ+ community, there are also a lot who are still against it. So we’ve never had this conversation before and I’m curious now, growing up, I never came out to you or anything like that. When you realised I’m gay, how did you actually navigate coming to acceptance or deal with that on your own?
A: That’s a super interesting question. I don’t know if I can pinpoint one moment but I know that growing up, a lot of times when we would play – when we were younger, we obviously didn’t have video games and iPads and all those things, we would use our imagination a lot and we will always play house. I remember me, you and [my brother] Aaron and [our cousin] Stace sometimes when she was over, we would play house. And I would always obviously want to be the mum, the bossy one, whatever, and then force Aaron to be the kid. But I also remember that you always never ever wanted a female role. I always remember this – you always wanted to be either a male role, like the older brother, or the pet.
Q: The pet? I don’t remember this at all.
A: I remember you’d rather be the pet than another woman in the house. And as a child I remember obviously I did not think it was weird at all. I was just, “Yes, okay, great, different characters.” But I think as I got older and it started to be very consistent and I think when we started to go to school, it was when I maybe became a little bit more aware of what your choices might be. And it was almost always the coin dropping at that time, “Yeah, this makes sense. Yeah, she doesn’t like being a girl.” And I think for me, it never felt like it didn’t make sense, it just felt like, this is always who you’ve been.
Q: Like the dots finally connected?
A: Yes, this is always who you have been for me. And I feel I was almost glad that, yes, okay, she’s being true to who she is.
Q: So interesting. What pet was I? I can’t remember this at all.
A: I remember you being a monkey once.
Q: Well, I am a monkey, I’m born in the Year of the Monkey.
A: Exactly. So I think you really embraced that identity. Strange, right? I remember that.
Q: I wish we had a video of that. Why do you think it’s important that there are straight allies in the community?
A: I think whenever there is a minority voice that needs support, it then becomes an echo chamber; it’s not enough for the minorities to just be talking about it. The only way that it moves out of that is if the majority talks about it. And in this case, the heterosexual community is the majority, and if we don’t stand up and talk about it and stand with you, then there are many things in the narrative that you guys want to pursue that become harder. Basically, whenever you’re in a position of more privilege, you have to recognise that your voice – unfortunately or fortunately – carries more weight, and you just have to be able to put your weight behind it; to stand with the people that need it because if not, honestly, you’re just going to be caught in your own bubble and you’re not going to be able to really make any change. And I’m sure that there are definitely people who are happy to just do that and not be an ally and just live in their own Lalaland, but I don’t want that sort of future for my children. Whether or not they’re in the majority or minority group, I want them to recognise that society only works when these two groups work together. So whatever their choices are, I need them to understand that they need to recognise that this is how society works.
Q: I actually have a whole lot of questions regarding your children and how you might deal with it as well. Let’s revisit them again at the end. As a popular content creator, you support Pink Dot, which is Singapore’s equivalent of Pride every year, you post about it, you’re pretty vocal about it, you share on your Instagram a lot. And you have shared with me in confidence that you lose followers every year when you post. So why do you still continue to post and be so vocal about your support when you don’t have to?
A: Putting this in context, I don’t really count my followers, obviously, but I remember a friend of mine mentioning before that she had posted something and a follower had actually responded to her and asked her, “Why do you choose to share content like this if you know people are going to stop following you?” And because she told me that, I became curious, “Wow, do people actually really decide to unfollow?” Because the truth is, yes, if I’m following someone who is speaking about something that I don’t necessarily condone, if it’s something that is quite small, okay, I skip pass it. But I guess if it’s something I was truly against, I would consider unfollowing them. So I went into my own numbers to just look, and every year I noticed that after I share a couple of posts or stories on Pink Dot, I do lose a couple of followers.
Q: When you say a couple, is it a handful or tens, hundreds?
A: This year, I looked and it was 78 that I lost after that one specific post.
Q: You know it was exactly 78?
A: Yes, because Instagram now calculates it. There’s an algorithm.
Q: They calculate your unfollows?
A: Yes, they calculate your unfollows and follows, which is kind of cool. That’s why I’m bringing up this example because for this year, I looked at it on the day that I posted that. So at the end of that day, I looked and it said “minus 78 followers”. So that was a loss, I also gained followers – it could be a mix of bots – but that is quite a significant number of loss of followers. On a usual day, average sometimes maybe it’s 17, 18 to 20. So you can kind of tell there is some kind of loss that could be directly or due to a post that I shared.
Q: How does it make you feel, and why do you still keep posting about it each year?
A: To be honest, I’m actually glad when I see it because the truth is that I’m not going to really change my stance on this. I’m not going to stop sharing about it, so if these followers find that it doesn’t align with their views, then I’m more than happy that they leave and they shouldn’t be following me just because they like the beauty pictures or the pictures of the kids and all the good stuff because I also want to use the platform to talk about things that are important to me, and Pink Dot is one of those things that are important to me. I like sharing about the day and the cause because I truly believe in it. So if they are not happy to be there for the days that I am sharing about things that I do want to talk about, then they don’t have to be there.
Q: Interestingly, I’ve also noticed that I’ve been losing a handful of followers the more that I post about LGBT topics and issues. I was very surprised as well because I thought people already know from my pictures, from looking at me, and that they would be onboard, so to speak. So I also found it very interesting that the more vocal that I’m becoming, the more I’m losing and I’m having the same perspective as you; there’s no point having fake followers – like fake friends – because you want people who follow you because they like what you’re about and what you stand for. It’s about having a stand. Your stand is your brand.
A: Yes, exactly. And I think especially when you talk about things that are important to you, that is literally the moment that you’re being the most vulnerable and the most yourself. So if they don’t want to be there for that, then how can you count on them to be there for everything else?
“People might have not recognised how important it is to have diversity in their brand, but today there’s no excuse anymore.”
Q: Let’s talk about brands and branding. As a content creator, one of the causes you champion is sustainability. I’m sure you’re very familiar with the concept of greenwashing. What are your thoughts on the concept of rainbow-washing? You know a lot of brands are bringing out Pride collections: Under Armour has a Pride collection, Converse as well, Adidas has that Pride sneaker now, even MINI has a Pride car. So what are your thoughts on rainbow-washing?
A: I don’t know if any of the brands you mentioned would be considered a brand that is rainbow-washing but I think with any brand, any message, any post, any collaboration that comes out, it’s also the responsibility of the consumer to do their homework. Because if it’s a sudden change to kind of jump on the bandwagon then, yes, it would be rainbow-washing but if the brand has consistently supported individuals from that community then I think it is part of their brand story. However, I also do believe that if you are jumping on the bandwagon because you think it’s on trend, I hope that you also realise that today because of social media, people will hold you accountable. It’s not enough for you to just do one post or do one collab or feature one person from this community. So I think to the brands, the world is kind of waiting for you to keep talking about it really, so I don’t see anything wrong really in brands jumping onboard because they suddenly realise, “Oh, no, everyone’s talking about it, what am I doing if I’m not talking about it?” But I think their responsibility after that is to continue the conversation because it’s not about one day, it’s not about one month; it is a consistent, long-running conversation. So I think they really need to follow up and at least if every year during Pride, they’re releasing something, they’re talking about individuals, they’re using their platform to give voice to that community, then I think they’re doing the right thing, even if they just started in 2020. People might have not recognised how important it is to have diversity in their brand, but today there’s no excuse anymore for anyone to say, “Oh, I didn’t know”. Last time, it might have been easier to just be so caught up—still not acceptable but you can kind of understand how people might have been so blind to it—but today there’s just no way unless you literally are living under a rock with no internet, like in a tree somewhere. There’s no way that you can’t know what is going on.
Q: But what do you think if the brand is just doing it in order to appear woke? What if that’s the come-from? How do we tell if they’re coming from that angle?
A: It’s definitely not the right come-from. Let’s talk about representation, diversity. In my experience, in terms of racial diversity, I do know of brands that have posted about tokenism or racism not being cool, but who actually have no representation within their company itself. But the thing is, this info is privy to some people only and I feel, I hate to say it, but it is the responsibility of the employees or even ex-employees to make it known because nobody else would know unless you were privy to that. But that being said, as a consumer, you can also do your homework, go on the website, see if they do have representation in their models, do they have representation in their stories? If they don’t, then it is also our responsibility to call them out, like, “Hey, you posted about this but where are the people that you’re talking about, that you stand with? Maybe we could see some of them in your campaigns. Maybe we could see some of them in your stories.” And we’re now living in a day and culture where social media really helps us do that in, sometimes an ugly way.
Q: Have you watched Disclosure, the documentary by Laverne Cox, on Netflix?
A: No, I haven’t.
Q: Oh my God, it is so good, you have to go check it out. It’s about the representation of trans individuals in Hollywood, in films way back, even 100 years before. It’s how Hollywood and the media narratives have actually shaped society’s perception of transgender individuals. It is so powerful. You have to watch it.
A: I’ll go and watch it.
Q: And interestingly, I don’t know if you saw the thing that blew up with Halle Berry.
A: No, what happened?
Q: So Halle Berry shared on IG Live that she was contemplating playing a trans man character in an upcoming film. And then she came under fire by all the trans activists, and Disclosure, in particular, called her out because there are actually a lot of trans actors out there.
A: There are, exactly.
Q: What they were trying to say is that trans people should tell their own stories. And you got to watch that documentary, it is so good because it’s very deep and the trans actresses explain what is being taken away from them by having these actors and actresses play the trans roles. Very, very good; very powerful.
A: Cool. I’ll check it out.
“It’s not enough to just do a collab and make a product. At the end of the day, voices and stories need to be heard. So I hope that whatever the brands are doing, they are recognising that they need to use their platform to amplify those voices that need it.”
Q: Back to the Pride collections and rainbow-washing, do you think these rainbow-wrapped products are actually being purchased by the LGBTQ+ community? Or do you think it’s more for publicity?
A: That’s a good question. I definitely think there are collections that are being purchased by the LGBT+ community but, obviously, this is just an assumption; I don’t know the numbers. But I’m sure there are also a lot of people outside the community that are purchasing it. But I suppose, what is the reason for them putting these collabs together? Is it to make a stand and then stand with the community? Because the likelihood of it is that it’s for sales, right? They don’t really care too much about who is purchasing it and what the message really is. Hence, I feel it’s not enough to just do a collab and make a product. At the end of the day, I feel like it’s voices and stories that need to be heard. So I hope that whatever the brands are doing, they are recognising that they need to use their platform to give way to those voices and to amplify those voices that need it because they do have the eyeballs and the ears. It’s not right to greenwash or to rainbow-wash, obviously, but I think we need to give brands a chance to really show up.
Q: That brings me to my next question: How else would be a better way for the brands to engage the LGBTQ+ community, beyond rainbow-splashed products?
A: I think the question needs to be asked to the community; it needs to be directed to them. With anyone who does any sort of social work or philanthropy, I think they will always tell you that you can’t give the person you think that needs something what you think they need. It’s like me deciding, “Oh, I feel like I’m observing from here and it looks like you need this. And I give it to you.” But it might not even be what you need right now. So I feel the conversation is the most important. Nike did a really good job because I watched their campaign during Pride. They featured athletes from the LGBTQIA community and made them look like heroes, which I think was something that everybody needs to see time and again. Any group of person needs to have mentors, needs to have people to look up to, needs to see people that they can relate to up on a pedestal too so that they feel that, “Hey, that can be me, I can reach that, I am of worth because someone like me is worthy of this space.” So I feel that doing things like that helps--you’re not selling a product, no, you’re not even selling, you’re showing that your brand stands with and celebrates people of that community. So I feel that gives that community a voice. And then after that, you should speak to the community and ask them “How else? What should we be doing to help you guys?” And the conversation has to go from there because I can’t speak for what you guys, I have to come and listen.
Q: Interesting. If you ask would I buy a Pride collection shoe or whatever, I’m not sure. I have many considerations and it’s so nuanced because it’s [a question of] how much do I want to show and flaunt as well. But it’s interesting, like, I found out about the Adidas [Pride] sneaker because my straight friend bought it and she was wearing it.
A: Was she proud to show off to you? “Look at my shoe.”
Q: She didn’t at all. I noticed it and then I was, “Oh, is that a Pride shoe?” and she was, “Yeah, I just bought it.” But maybe she wore it because she was meeting me, I don’t know.
A: Maybe. I hope more conversations like this will happen where there is an open conversation for all communities because no one side can assume to really understand the other.
Q: Exactly. That’s what I hope to do with this podcast as well – to be that bridge. So most brands are getting increasingly woke, but some are still lagging. What would you like to say to those who are lagging?
A: What would I like to say to them? It’s 2020: The world is speaking, you have to listen and there’s nothing wrong with having made mistakes or not have been woken up to it until now, but the fact is now that you know, you can’t un-know; and now that you’ve seen, you can’t un-see. So have that conversation with your team, make sure your management understands and people who are on the ground understand, people above you understand that there’s a conversation that the world is engaging in and if you want to even be part of this economy with their businesses, they have to engage their consumers in this conversation and you cannot single out any one of them because then you just have to face the consequence of being found out, shot down, and there will go your business, honestly. Sure, you might have a small group or maybe even a large group of people that might follow you because you have chosen to not engage in those conversations, and that’s your prerogative.
Q: On one hand, brands that want to appear progressive should go down this road and start--
A: I think if you want to be progressive--the word ‘progressive’ means that you are listening to the ground, to what is happening on the street.
Q: But then the flip side is that the majority of the world population are hetero--a lot are waking up, already woke--but a lot of them still have conservative views. What are your thoughts on brands that are afraid to go the rainbow route for fear of alienating their core consumer base?
A: It’s definitely not an easy position to be in but I think that’s why the bigger brands are doing what they do. Again, if you have majority of the market, they’re using their voice to speak up, and if they can do it, then what more all the smaller brands? Because the big names are doing it. So if you’re not recognising that that is the world we live in today, then you’re going to fall behind because the truth is the big brands are doing it now. Even like calling out anything--I think there was a boycott on Facebook recently because of Facebook allowing ads to go up that were discriminatory. So if even big brands don’t want to use the number 1 social platform to market their products and can say, “I’m not going to use you until you change your stance”, I think that is saying something to the rest of the business world. Like, the big players are playing their game in there, so if you want to be part of the game, you really have to reconsider.
Q: I totally see what you mean but the argument to that would be that the big brands can afford it because they have the share of the market and they have the financial muscle so they can afford to lose customers, whereas the smaller ones can’t.
A: You should definitely speak to a business owner about this question because I guess as a consumer, I would hope that the brand is brave enough to be authentic in who they want to be and also stand up or stand with the voices that need them because I hope that the majority one day will start to see, “Hey, we all have to band together. We can’t be self-righteous for the rest of our lives.” But that being said, even though in this conversation, you see me as majority because I have heterosexual privilege, I think even in my community, I am a minority. Not everyone thinks like me in terms of--
Q: Ideologies.
A: Yes, ideologies. So I think you should definitely ask a business owner that question. When it comes down to their rice bowl, who will they choose to stand with? That’s an interesting question. I think they need to be sensitive to it as well.
Q: There are always two sides to everything and that’s exactly what I want to hear, I want to hear all the sides.
A: Yes, and let people decide for themselves.
Q: Let’s talk about your children.
A: Babies~
“I want Zola and Ari to grow up in a world where there is equality, where everyone is equally important, equally worthy of space, to be heard, to be seen, to have dreams, to have goals, where everyone is of equal standing.”
Q: So you have two young kids, Zola Mae and Ari Jon. How old are they now? 7 and 5?
A: Yes, they turned 7 and 5 this year.
Q: We touched on this earlier, about the kind of world you want them to grow up in. How important is it for you to raise them to be embracing of diversity and why?
A: It’s one hundred percent important. In the last 10 years, even I have slowly learnt for myself how important it is to be surrounded by a diverse community, not just for the wellbeing of my character development but for business, [but also] for the way I mother my children and what I teach them. I realise that if you are caught in a certain kind of world, the chances of you adapting and recognising that there are many different ways to see the world become super limited, like you just don’t realise it. Also, even conversations between me and Kevin; our upbringings have been very different. And I think Kev is my first encounter of someone who actually grew up in a very different way from me and he helped me see a lot of things from a different perspective. I think I grew up much more privileged than I thought I was, because my issues were different from his. Mine were not financial issues, mine were more family-related issues which I felt was my struggle. But he actually comes from a very strong family unit but he came from a different kind of economic struggle and I feel we meet--like in the Venn diagram--that’s where Zola and Ari sit. And I started to realise from hearing his stories and most men will tell you, once you go to the army, it opens you to a whole new world that is super diverse with people you never thought you would meet. And he has all these stories that when he shared with me, it’s really when your mind opens up to recognising that, wow, the world that I know is super small and I am not going to make any difference or I’m not going to be able to understand how to empathise with anyone else if I think this is everyone’s world. And I think it’s hard to put in words because hearing myself even, I’m sounding so privileged like, “Oh, yeah, I didn’t know, I was in this bubble.” But the truth is, I don’t want that for Zola and Ari and I know that as they interact with more people, as they recognise that everyone is equally important--equally worthy of space to be heard, to be seen, they have dreams, they have goals, everyone is of equal standing--then they’re going to grow up in a world where there is some kind of equality and hopefully much less of this exclusion where communities can’t be bridged.
Q: As they’re very young, have you actually spoken to them about LGBTQIA issues?
A: Yes, they are very young but I don’t think they are too young to understand.
Q: Okay, for example, how did you explain to them about Pink Dot?
A: This year was the first year we really explained to them what we were celebrating and, with kids, it still has to be described to them in a space that they understand because as you said, they’re still young. So when we bought and put up the pink lights, for example, Zola was asking us what we were doing and the explanation that I gave her, or rather the reason that I gave her, was that we bought the pink lights because we were going to celebrate love and that there is an equal right for anyone to love. And for her, for kids, it’s very blatant, right? Like if you ask them what it means to love, they’ll say, “When you really, really, really like and you care for someone.” So to them, when you ask Zola and Ari, that’s how they’ll describe love to you. But I think the main message of our talk with them was that everyone is allowed the right to love whoever they love, and the conversation didn’t end there but I think that was the foundation of our conversation. We didn’t describe, “Sometimes a girl can love another girl, a man can love another man.” We didn’t go down that path because I feel they need to also discover some things on their own but I think by laying or planting the seed that teaches them that everyone is allowed the right to love whoever they choose, I’m hoping that there is a seed that we help nurture and grow, and that is also something that we sow into our home. And I think when you say it out and when you articulate it, you become accountable because I feel no matter what happens, whoever they choose to love in the future, they are going to remind me that I told them this: “You told me that I am allowed the right to love anyone that I choose.” So I know that it’s going to come back to me; whoever they choose is going to come back.
Q: On that note, and I’m going to ask you what that bar owner asked you: How would you feel if one of your children came home one day and told you that they’re dating someone from the same gender?
A: I think it’s interesting to think about. I don’t know if our parents thought about it before, but I literally have had this conversation with Kevin and I think what we have always come to is that we want the kids to know that we love them and that we support them, and if this person is someone that they love, then we want to learn to love that person too. I don’t think it’s going to be necessarily easy because we are a heterosexual couple so I’m not saying that it’s because we wouldn’t condone what they do but it’ll be something new in our home for us. But I hope that at the end of the day, we remember that we are there for Zola and Ari, and if it’s their choice and if it’s one that they are telling us they are very certain and sure about, my hope and prayer is that I will stand with them because I don’t ever want them to feel like I turned my back on them. Sorry, emotional. It’s true, you know, if we teach them and we say to them every day that there’s unconditional love here then honestly, even as I’m crying, there’s no reason to cry because there’s nothing wrong with it. I’m emotional because this will apply to everything, like, whenever they come home and whenever they feel that they are unsure, I hope that they know that home is a safe space and they will always receive love.
Q: That’s so beautiful. Thank you for sharing.
A: You’re welcome.
Q: I want to ask what the tears are about. Why are you crying?
A: Because it actually made me want to ask you, like, did it ever--
Q: No, no, don’t make me cry okay.
A: That’s why when you invited me here, I said I knew I was going to cry because, like you said, we’ve never had this talk before but it always has made me wonder did you ever feel like when things were so different for you, that you didn’t have anyone? I think it’s because I’m answering you that I am now thinking of those moments. Was there ever a point where you felt you were alone?
Q: Always.
A: Yes, obviously, I would never want to feel like I’m in a situation where I’m alone so I never ever want my kids to feel that way. And now that I’m older and I understand what you were going through as well, how did you--I’m so proud of you for surviving being alone for so long.
Q: Okay. So now you’re going to make me cry. Thanks.
A: That’s what this is about.
Q: Thank you for saying that. It does mean a lot to have that experience acknowledged. And I also want to acknowledge you for being such a woke parent, and I think Zola Mae and Ari are very lucky to have a parent who is so open and just so conscious and mindful about their feelings and how you’re raising them. And I think that’s a beautiful thing. I’m looking forward to seeing them growing up and how they’re going to be. And can I just say, I think you’re doing a fantastic job with them.
A: Thanks. It’s not an easy job.
Q: Definitely not. I can’t even imagine. I think we had a really awesome conversation. Thank you for coming on the show and just being so open and sharing so openly.
A: Thank you for having me.
Transcribed by Natasha Pestana