Interview: Elijah Tay on the MOE Protest & Arrest

In this interview, SPEQ:TRUM host Jamie Nonis speaks with activist and MyQueerStorySG founder Elijah Tay about their peaceful protest for trans students’ rights outside the Ministry of Education in Singapore, which led to their arrest on 26 January 2021. Elijah also opens up about their personal experiences with gender dysphoria and transphobia in schools, and their hopes for systemic change in Singapore.

Elijah & Jamie outside the Ministry of Education.

Q: Thank you for coming on the show today, Elijah. I thought it was important that people hear directly from you what exactly had happened and perhaps we can start with what inspired you to take part in that protest?

E: Personally, as a trans student in school who is assigned female at birth but presents in a more masculine way, I’ve faced transphobia not only from the general school population, but even from staff members themselves. One very significant incident that has really impacted me was during a lecture in Sec 4, before the lecture started, the teacher looked at me because I was sitting rather ‘lup sup’ -- not in a very proper way, sitting with my legs slightly ajar and I was wearing a skirt at that time. But everyone was sitting that way because no one really cared. But the teacher targeted me, she made eye contact with me and told me to sit properly. She followed with a statement, “As long as you’re wearing a skirt, I take that you’re a girl. If you want to be a guy, wait for your next life.”

Q: Wow.

E: I was, “Huh? Teachers can make this kind of statement? Why did she think that it was a sensitive comment to make? Did she not see how it could be offensive? Especially since she doesn’t know whether I’m trans or not.” And to make that statement, it’s transphobic, it’s an offensive statement. And because she’s a teacher that’s respected in the school, and I personally respected her a lot as one of my teachers, I was quite taken aback, and I felt like I couldn’t trust any other staff members. Because if a teacher I respect so much can make this kind of statement, what more the other teachers in this school?

Q: She said it in front of the whole class?

E: Yes, in front of the whole lecture. 

Q: What was your reaction like? What was the reaction of everybody?

E: From what I remember, I think after she made that statement, the whole lecture theatre fell silent. But no one said anything and I didn’t say anything either because I was very taken aback. I was just sitting there and felt very uncomfortable throughout the whole lecture. Although she didn’t call me out explicitly, we all kind of knew she was talking to me because can see the line of eye contact.

Q: In your batch, were you the only one who identifies as trans?

E: From what I know, yeah. I don’t know anyone else in my batch that identified as trans.

Q: So she was clearly targeting you?

E: Yeah, it seems a lot like that. So, I felt very helpless, there were no clear avenues of support which I could seek in school. And I didn’t know which teachers to turn to, I didn’t know if there were policies that protected me from this kind of discrimination. So I kept it to myself. I talked to a few friends about it but I didn’t report it to the school or anything for a good two years. I finally did raise it up to one of the school leaders in J2, which was last year because I was going to graduate anyway, so might as well get it out there. When I was telling him about it, because I’ve suppressed it for so long, I broke down during the meeting. But his response was, “That isn’t discrimination and you shouldn’t take it too hard.” I felt even more helpless. And I think that’s a really ‘in my face’ moment that, “Okay, schools are not going to protect trans kids and there needs to be explicit policies to protect trans kids in schools.”

Based on personal experience and I also run MyQueerStorySG [on Instagram]… most of the demographic of the page is youth who have written in – they’ve talked about their instances of discrimination in family and in schools as well. Reading their stories and seeing them really pour out their instances of trauma and how much these things affect their mental health, their day-to-day and simply existing, I empathise with that a lot. It’s just very apparent that transphobia exists especially in schools, and because students are in a very vulnerable position, oftentimes, they don’t have a voice to speak up when they’re within these institutions.

So when the Ashlee case blew up, I felt that was kind of the straw that broke the camel’s back. Like, “Okay, we need to do something now. Because if we don’t do something now, the generations to come are going to continue suffering in school.” And I can’t sit with myself knowing these things happen but not do anything about it. And I feel we have exhausted all other avenues of reaching out for support already. On a community level, there are initiatives like TransBefrienders who support, who roll out educational support for O-Level, A-Level, N-Level students. I think they started the initiative sometime last year. We also have organisations like The T Project where people can donate to. And we’ve written to ministers, we have people writing list of demands, statements of solidarity and all these. But there seems to be little to no progress when it comes to building a more inclusive space in society or even in school. It’s a very strong feeling of helplessness knowing that we’re not going anywhere and children are going to continue to suffer.

So I guess that’s what led me to the protest. Someone has to listen right now. We need to get the conversation going, we need to start substantive conversation to actually do something to protect these trans kids because these are real problems that require real solution and actual attention that leaders of our nation and our schools should pay attention to.

Q: I definitely feel your passion and I empathise with what you’ve been through. I want to ask you, what were you hoping to achieve from doing this protest?

E: Definitely to open up more conversations, because the problem with why trans kids are continuing to face discrimination because that is the status quo in our society currently. And by doing something like a protest is a symbolic gesture to shift and break the status quo. And to get a very strong conversation coming. I think the main intention, like what I hope most from the protest, is that MOE will really take this issue seriously and do something as simple as properly referring to the trans student instead of misgendering her. And also think about what substantive policies can be put in place to protect these kids instead of constantly sweeping it under the rug.

Elijah at the peaceful protest outside MOE on 26 January 2021.

Q: Did you expect that the police were going to be called? Did you expect to get arrested? Did you anticipate that would happen?

E: I knew that I was participating in a peaceful demonstration without a permit so on that basis, I did expect police interference. I guess I kind of expected police, like security guards, coming. But what I didn’t expect was how soon they came. The security guard came within five minutes, and in the next two to three minutes, a swarm of plainclothes police officers came by. It was a very shocking moment because it’s so many officers, and how they come so fast?

Q: This protest was planned amongst your group prior? It wasn’t a spontaneous thing that happened, right?

E: Yes, we planned it prior.

Q: How long did you all take to plan this?

E: Just about a week.

Q: Could the authorities have gotten wind of this planned protest?

E: I guess, I’m suspecting so. It’s possible.

Q: Talk me through what actually happened. So you anticipated that it was going to happen and you know that you went to protest knowingly without a permit. The question on a lot of people’s minds would be, “Why didn’t you all get a permit?”

E: I guess because we already know it’s not going to be approved. We looked at the history of people who tried to apply for permits. I remember seeing somewhere that someone wanted to stage a 10-minute protest at Tuas in the middle of the night and the permit got rejected.

Q: What was that for?

E: I don’t remember.

Q: So nothing LGBTQ-related?

E: I don’t think it was LGBTQ related. So if simple things like this, which very clearly does not disrupt public order because that guy is going to just stand there in the middle of the night with no audience for 10 minutes, so if things like these are not going to get approved, then what more something that draws direct attention to a systemic flaw? We felt the permit wasn’t going to go through anyway, so we just decided to stage the protest.

Q: You went down knowing the risk of what might happen. So you’re not exactly surprised because you kind of anticipated it. Weren’t you worried about the repercussions of your actions and how it might affect your future with regard to employability and your career, for example?

E: Those things did go through my mind but I was thinking more of the bigger picture. Sure, maybe I could get a criminal record, maybe employers will be concerned about that. I’ll talk about employability first – if someone really values my work, I don’t think this history of staging a protest would be something that bothers them and, in fact, because I’m quite involved in activism, being part of this protest is something that reflects the values and principles that I stand by. So I’m not too concerned about it affecting employability. And even if we were to look at criminal record at face value, I don’t mind, I’m most willing to take that risk, to take that personal sacrifice if it means that it opens up more space for civil society to fight for our rights and to make life better for the generations to come and everyone else.

Q: Beautifully said, thank you. At this juncture right now, do you know what’s going to happen in terms of the criminal case?

E: Right now, we have been to the station about two times – for the people who protest – for follow-up investigations. And currently, it seems like they have exhausted the questions that they want to ask us. So I don’t think that we’ll be called down to the station again soon.

Q: What kind of questions did they ask?

E: Generally, it’s just, “Who organised the protest? Run me through the entire day. What time did you go? When did you reach MOE? Who was there? Do you recognise these people in the photo?”. Stuff like that. Very typical investigation questions.

Q: As in, the ‘people’ would be the people you were protesting with?

E: Yes; “Identify them. Do you know them personally? Whose contact number do you have?” That kind of stuff.

Q: Another thing I was wondering about was of the five people who protested, only three got arrested. So the other two left before the police came? 

E: Yes, that’s right.

Q: So you knew the police was coming and there was a window where you could have left to avoid being arrested. Why did you choose to stay on?

E: The point of me protesting in the first place is that I want to make a stand and it made sense for me to stay through the whole process, to reflect the sincerity in my cause, which is to stand up for trans rights, for students in MOE schools. So I decided to stay through to do just that; to show that I’m very serious about what I’m standing for. My message is something I hope you will listen to right now and pay attention to. I’m not leaving until something is done about it.

Q: On hindsight, do you regret those actions?

E: No.

Q: It sounds like you’ve been through a lot in your journey – in your school journey, in your personal journey – that led you to this point that you felt like you needed to do something so that there could be positive change for the next generation. Talk to me more about your gender identity. When did you first realise you were trans?

E: In Sec 4, I was quite involved in Model United Nations, where we basically we pretend we are in the UN and we discuss pertinent global issues. I was quite involved in Sec 4 so by the end of it, I started chairing counsels and because of that, I had to write third-person biographies. It’s a standard MUN thing to have these, so your delegates know who you are before the conference and all that. So while I was writing my biography, using she/her pronouns, I realised I was very uncomfortable referring to myself with these feminine terms.

At that point in time, I still didn’t quite know what exactly pronouns were or what non-binary was, but it just felt really off for me. So I started writing using they/them pronouns instead and that helped me feel a lot more comfortable. I felt that represented myself a lot more authentically and made me feel a lot more comfortable. So for the year, whenever I had to write in third-person, like in J1, I made sure I used they/them pronouns and that gave me a sense of gender euphoria. But I still couldn’t quite put words to it at that point. So eventually after reading up more about pronouns, about what gender identity is, about what it means to be non-binary, I realised, “Hey, that fit me perfectly: I am non-binary.”

Q: That was the ‘aha’ moment.

E: Yes. So I guess it took me about a year to figure it out.

Q: And that was last year?

E: Two years ago. And whenever I look at myself or photos of myself, I don’t see male or female. I don’t think those fit quite right with me and I always felt that personally I don’t fit in the binary genders either. So that’s when I knew that I’m non-binary.

Elijah in uniform at their previous school.

Q: Two things here: one is about pronoun-usage; and the other is about non-binary. Let’s tackle the pronoun usage first. Can you go deeper into correct pronoun usage. Why is it important and how should people go about it?

E: Pronoun usage is kind of your name, you don’t want to be called other than what you’re comfortable being addressed as. My name is Elijah. I wouldn’t want some random person to just come up to me and start calling me Chris because that’s not who I am, it doesn’t make sense. So very similarly, I use they/them pronouns. So if people use he or she pronouns on me, it would feel that’s not representative of who I am and I would feel quite disrespected if you don’t use the correct terms on me. So that’s on pronoun usage.

Q: A question that I often get from people who are not within the community is: Should we ask the person if we’re unsure?

E: I think that would be a good practice. But it also depends on the context. Say, you’re in a Zoom conference with 100 participants, you don’t unmute yourself and point directly to a person and ask, “What are your pronouns?” I think oftentimes if you’re unsure, it’s good to ask privately. Like, “Hey, I just want to get your pronouns right. What pronouns do you use? And are you okay if I use it in a certain context?” Because some people are ‘out’ in certain social circles but not in other social circles. So I think aside from asking what pronoun someone uses, it’s also good to ask “What pronoun should I use in this space and is it okay if I use it in this space as well?” Because we want to make sure our trans friends are as protected as possible, as safe as possible.

Q: You talked about your name being Elijah. From my understanding, it’s not the name you were born with. Tell me more about that: When did you change your name and why did you choose Elijah?

E: I’ve always wanted an English name. My parents only gave me a Chinese name, so I thought it would be cool. Last year, I started asking my friends, “Hey, what name do you think would fit me best?”. And there were a lot of suggestions, I did a lot of research as well about the names they suggested and the meaning behind them. One of my friends suggested Elijah and I thought that sounds pretty nice. And I’ve always wanted a name with ‘J’ but all the ‘J’ names didn’t seem to resonate with me.

Q: ‘J’ names are pretty cool.

E: Of course, of course [laughs] So Elijah has a ‘J’ inside, and I like the sound of ‘J’, so I thought, “Okay, that sounds pretty good.” So I started telling my friends, “Could you refer to me as ‘Elijah’ from now on?”

Q: But what does it mean?

E: It means, ‘Yahweh is God’.

Q: I know it’s a bible name; are you religious?

E: I believe in Christ. I wouldn’t really label myself as Christian because I don’t align myself with most Christians who are relatively more conservative. But I would say I’m a rather strong believer of God and the greatness He brings into this world or at least what He hopes we bring into this world as His children.

Q: Were you baptised as Christian when you were young?

E: I was brought up in a household of freethinkers and I only got to know God for myself about two years ago when I started exploring religion. I was curious about what religion was because I’ve never had that growing up. So I started going to temples and churches just to check them out, see what it’s like to be in a space where people are so full of faith. And eventually, I got drawn to the messages that were being preached in one of the churches I attended and it deeply resonated with me how full of justice and how messages of uplifting the vulnerable, the less privileged aligns very deeply with my personal values as well. So through the process, I got to know God for myself and started praying. So I guess it was a very gradual transition into becoming a believer of Christ.

Q: How do you feel when people call you Elijah?

E: I feel affirmed and respected. But mostly affirmed, like, “Yes, I see you and this is who you are.” I made the switch to Elijah last year actually. But because my school is still a relatively more conservative space, I didn’t feel safe letting people know that I prefer Elijah and that I use they/them pronouns. I wasn’t exactly very vocal about my identity in school.

Q: In your workplace now, do they call you Elijah?

E: Yes, they call me Elijah. In fact, I made all my [job] applications signing off as Elijah.

Q: Can you explain the concept of ‘deadnaming’ and how it makes you feel as a trans person?

E: Deadnaming is basically addressing a trans person by a name that they were assigned at birth that they currently do not associate themselves with. For instance, a trans man who was born with the name Mary and he currently doesn’t use that name. Maybe he goes by Michael right now, so deadnaming is despite knowing that he doesn’t like the name Mary, you constantly refer to him as Mary and addressing him as Mary. It’s very disrespectful because it directly disrespects what name he goes by and it’s telling you, “I don’t see you and I’m just going to use the name that I want to use because it’s convenient for me and I do not respect what you go by.” So that’s deadnaming.

Q: In other words, deadnaming is intentional?

E: I guess, oftentimes, yes.

Q: Say it’s a family member and they’ve known you as a certain name for so long, it’s hard for them to shift and adopt a new practice overnight, for example. So if they do it mistakenly or not intentionally, is it still referred to as deadnaming?

E: I guess it could still be. Because when it comes to things like discrimination, it’s oftentimes what is being receiving by the person who is being hurt rather than what is intended.

Q: For me, I’m always trying to see things from both perspectives. On one hand, I can understand that it can be tough and challenging for the non-trans person who may be straight, cisgender, who is not familiar with all this and they don’t understand why it’s such a big deal. So maybe can you explain deeper why is it so disrespectful and hurtful and harmful to the trans person?

E: To deadname?

Q: Yes. This is especially significant because we know that the MOE statement referred to the trans person by ‘he’ and misgendered them, and that’s why there’s been so much debate over it and that’s why the whole incident exploded – it was the catalyst to explode even more. Perhaps you can shed some light on that also.

E: When someone comes forward and says, “This is who I am and this is how you should address me”, I think it’s bare minimum to respect what they go by; their pronouns, their name. To deviate from that and ignore that, close one’s eyes and call them by a different name or a different set of pronouns, then that is something that is–it just tells them, “I don’t see you, I don’t care about what your identity is. I only care about what narrative I want to force onto you and how I want you to conform to society standards.”

Q: I think why the MOE statements coming out were quite problematic and why it’s galvanised so much of the community to start speaking out is because of the contradictory nature of the statements that are coming out. Because on one hand, it says that “We respect the gender or what the individual wants” but at the same time they do something like that, by misgendering the person. As a trans person, do you experience gender dysphoria and how do you deal with it?

E: Yes. I’m born with a female body. I have chest dysphoria, so for that I wear a binder, and I wear slightly baggier clothes so that it doesn’t show off my more feminine shape. And I try not to wear pants that are too tight either because that would show off my hips. That’s pretty much it. I don’t have too much problem with my voice or hair. I don’t enjoy having long hair, so I’ve kept short hair since Sec 2 and I’ve been quite comfortable with how I currently express myself.

Q: So you would say you don’t experience much dysphoria?

E: Dysphoria has more to do with physical appearance, for myself. That’s why I wear a binder and bigger clothes.

Q: I think I need your recommendation for binders later.

E: Definitely.

Q: How about growing up? Besides the incident that you shared earlier, did you have a lot of other experiences of your peers and teachers being transphobic?

E: I guess not so much outrightly in my face. I don’t think people in school knew I was trans anyway. It was more of an assumption based on how I presented myself. But there’s always that sense of being outcasted or knowing that people are gossiping about you. Because I’m very vocal about LGBT issues without saying I’m part of the community but I guess it was pretty obvious. I knew people were talking behind my back and all that.

Q: Were you in an all girls’ school or co-ed school?

E: Co-ed school. I guess another memorable experience I had, not memorable in a good sense, was in Sec 3. I tried to run for an ex-co position for CCA and during the interview the teacher told me that, “As the president, you have to be the face of the CCA” – I don’t remember exactly what she said but she insinuated that my short hair was not it. So I was like, “Err… okay.” And I ended up not getting that role. I don’t know how much that comment affected my leadership opportunities, but it felt that not physically fitting into the social norms of what it looks like to be a girl in the school did compromise on the opportunities that I managed to get.

Q: What do you wish would have been handled differently? We’re talking about the young generation and how things could be better for them so what kind of systemic changes would you like to see?

E: I think it would be good if there are mandatory sensitivity training for school staff and teachers especially. Because they are the direct contact for children in school and if they don’t know how to deal with these issues sensitively and with discernment, then it doesn’t create a safe space for these kids to exist in school. Another big problem is also sexuality education. It’s very focused on depicting heterosexual relationships and eventually working towards a monogamous family nucleus. So I feel sex-ed could be more inclusive in explaining objectively what are the different sexualities, gender identities, and going beyond abstinence as the only way. Really bringing a more holistic sexuality education so that children are more informed, so kids don’t have to turn to the internet where the content could not be very child-friendly, but people feel like they have no choice but to view certain content anyway. Because the school curriculum is so lacking and people are not understanding what these issues are when schools should be the institutions that teach kids these things.

Q: That’s an excellent point. I hear young people talking about this a lot, especially young LGBTQ people, about how much they could’ve benefitted from this kind of education; a more balanced kind of sexual education in schools. Of course, there’s always that argument in Singapore society – do you think Singapore is ready for that?

E: When we ask “Are people in Singapore ready for that”, oftentimes, it boils down to what are the systems in place that cause people to not be ready. We have a lack of policies that protect trans kids, we have media restrictions that prevent objective or positive portrayal of LGBTQ+ characters, we have laws like 377A that continue to set a baseline for homophobia in Singapore. When we have these systemic challenges in place, it’s very hard to talk about are Singaporeans ready. Because Singaporeans are not ready precisely because of the legislation and policies in place. So in order to make sure that people are ready, we have to start from the top of the power structure that we have and change policies and laws that can serve to protect everyone and make sure that all people are truly equal. And I think that’s when people will take it more seriously to have their mindsets changed or at least have a more open mind and engage in more conversations where there is common ground and more room for understanding different perspectives

Q: I love it. I’m here for it. That’s what we are here for honestly – the different perspectives. Thank you so much for coming on the show and sharing. Before we end off, can you share what more hopes and dreams you have for Singapore and yourself?

E: Definitely. I just really hope that people will understand that everyone is not perfect, nobody is perfect, no one has a 100% of knowledge about what is right, what is good for the world, how do we best build a Singapore for everyone. And I think that is when it is important for us to acknowledge our limitations and be open to sharing ideas and perspective with different people. And it’s only when we have these spaces for conversation where there is no judgement and just a heart to learn, where society will progress forward and we’ll be able to have more critical conversations and serve to be as inclusive as possible, not only just of our people but of our concerns and of our principles we stand by and the beliefs that we have also.

Q: Wonderful. I really, really like everything that you said. Thank you so much. You really brought up some really, really good points. And I’m also looking forward to this future of Singapore. Could you share for our listeners what resources there are out there for trans kids right now who might be listening to this?

E: If you’re in Singapore, a lot of the more administrative stuff – how do you change your name, where do you get therapy – there’s this website called transgendersg.com, I find their resources very nicely organised and accessible. So you could check that out. Shoutout to MyQueerStorySG as well. If you want to listen to other experiences that LGBTQ+ people have in Singapore, whether it’s to empathise with them, find support or just get these stories out, share the stories so that other people outside the community can empathise with us and be motivated to be allies as well. We also have The T Project Singapore. They recently launched the Alicia Community Centre which is a shelter for trans folks in Singapore. If that’s the kind of support you need, you could go to them as well. They offer counselling services as well. TransBefrienders – if you’re a student and school is not exactly the safest space for you to continue on in your education for A, N and O-Levels, they provide tuition support for that as well. A lot of organisations and individuals are doing great work right now.

Q: Yes, it’s very encouraging that there are so many different organisations right now doing this work. Thank you so much. I really appreciate you being so open and sharing your story so openly and making some really, really good points that I hope the authorities somewhere, somehow are listening. And I really, really pray for the change that we all want for Singapore society as well. Thanks, Elijah.

E: Thank you.

Transcribed by Natasha Pestana